Hello

I finished my 1st year of piano with this book: "The joy of first-year piano"
I like it but it made me feel a bit ignorant about some theory and techniques. Any comments from you guys about this book?

Anyway, I really wanted to practice some techniques, and not just play little nice beginner songs.
I started now to learn the major scales ( http://www.pianostreet.com/search/freesingle.php?id=1258 ) and my question is if I have to keep on training the first (C major) with both hands till I fully have it under control, and then go further, or can I practice them all at once?
When do I start with arpeggio training?

And what is a normal progress time? I'm now practicing the C major scale with both hands for a week everyday, and I feel I'm making progress, I can play it at a decent speed now.


Greets

actually C major scale is the most difficult one to play among all scales.

i would try other scales first, if i were you. and practice it with one hand only first.

Signa,

Please explain to me exactly what you mean by C Major Scale being the most difficult one to play among all scales.

Can you play all scales for instance, and therefore are comparing it to others that you feel are easier to do?

Please tell me what makes them easier, as major scales are all the same distances from each other:

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 (DEGREES)
*-W-W-H-W-W-W-H (WHOLE OR HALF STEPS)

I have heard several people say this and I truly do not understand the thought behind why it might be difficult.

Please will anybody respond to this?

Betty

I did some research after what signa said, and it seems to be 'hard' because all fingers, long and short, are on the white keys and are not very natural positioned

Signa,
Yes, but thats only if you are trying to play it in a perfectly even legato manner. Which is not really necessary for most players.

Slideshow,
My suggestion is to learn four diatonic scales over a three week period. A major with its minor. Practice: C major and A harmonic minor; F major and D harmonic minor. After three weeks begin two more four more scales. Move round the circle of fifths up the flats first then Work back in the other direction from C up the sharp starting with G major and E harmonic minor; D major and B harmonic minor.

I only say this because its the way I learned them and it worked well for me.

OK, SideShow,

Good response, and fixable.

Get a pencil and place it on the table top. Put the number 3 finger of the RH on the flat pencil in a curved position with joints rounded, the finger pad above the nail at the tip touching the pencil, then pull the 2 and 4 fingers onto the pencil so all 3 are sitting side by side, then continue moving the 1 and 5 forward to take their place in the line up on the pencil. (Imagine 5 owls on a tree branch!) This is a model of the hand shape needed to play the white notes in front of the black keys. Fingers can not just be left on their own to go where they will.

You don't want your fingers extended into the area between the black and white keys - you'll get "hung up" and "slowed down", it's "booby-trapped". Train fingers to be out in front.

Then as you progress through # and b keys the finger playing the black notes will be the only finger(s) extended forward to touch the altered note.

This is not necessarily an immediate change, but may need to be trained into place. Don't be rigid with the fingers in order to keep them in place, but neither be totally careless about where they are allowed to go on the keyboard.

One rule that I keep telling new students is one finger to a key, because many wind up placing 2 fingers on one key, and don't notice they are doing it. They also play fingers out of order sometimes.

So fingers have to prepare for their work - kind of like the "Radio City Rockettes prepare for synchronized dancing" or the "Lions in the Lion Cage Respond to the Lion Tamer's Whip". (Silly comparison, but you get the idea, right?)

Betty,
This is how I understand it.
In order to keep a smooth legato the time between struck notes, must be the same for all notes struck. In the scale of C the time between the first three notes are vary close to each other because the finger are next to each other anatomically and resting on the keys already. In order to strike the fourth note, the thumb needs to rapidly accelerate then slow down immediately when back to rolling the two, three and finger again. In order to do this evenly, the hand needs to move in a jerky manner.

With the other scales the hand is always poised for cross over making the short cross over time easer to attain. Imagine a five runners at the starting line four of them down in a typical start position. Now, one of the runners on the line is in a standing position. When the gun goes off. Which of the runners will be behind out of the five?

The flattened hand across the white keys is like those runners the thumb like the man in standing position.

Do I make sense?

yes, my fingers are fully on the white keys in the c major scale, in a straight line, not between blacks. but I think forming this line with short and long fingers is considered unnatural.


dfpolitowski has an intresting point too

dfpolitowski says: "In the scale of C the time between the first three notes are very close to each other because the fingers are next to each other anatomically and resting on the keys already. In order to strike the fourth note, the thumb needs to rapidly accelerate then slow down immediately when back to rolling the two, three and finger again. In order to do this evenly, the hand needs to move in a jerky manner."

Betty: After the RH thumb has played, it continues moving behind the next playing finger (GLIDING -NOT jerky! - NOT accelerating!)and arrives on the F note as finger number 1 gracefully.

The joints need to be rounded to allow the passing thumb to go underneath the fingers.

Practice ascending slowly with the 1-2-3 fingers and then 1-2-3-4-5 fingers too. Descending is 5-4-3-2-1 cross 3,2-1.

Then train the LH in the same manner, where ascending is 5-4-3-2-1 cross 3 over, 2-1. Then descending 1-2-3 cross 1 under, 2-3-4-5. (One octave example)

SideShow says: I think forming this line with short and long fingers is considered unnatural.

Betty: With repeated usage it becomes more comfortable, so relax your hand somewhat, you don't want tightness, or stiffness in the hand or fingers. If you have huge hands and fingers this is all a little harder to do. Try to get somewhere closer to this position over time if you can.

Fingers need to work as a unit. Which is the whole reason behind the "Owls on the Tree Branch" (pencil) idea.

Don't reject information too quickly - everyone has their preferences, but there needs to be a willingness to try to comply,I think.

If you are looking for an answer you will do it over a period of times and either make use of it, or decide it does not assist you. Know what you are saying "No" to.

Again, I hope that something said here helps.

Betty

Ok, Graceful then.

keep doing them scales and arpeggios. over and over again. maybe 15-30 minutes a day if you are a beginner to intermediate.

when you are advanced, you can get your scale /arpeggio practice in your various pieces.


when doing them, do them solid, press firm, raise all fingers high, curled, strike through, relaxed wrists/arms, anvil-laden fingers (think).
when going a bit faster, play fingers less curled , flat maybe even , and not as hard striking.
when playing extra fast, light touch on the keys .

actually, about c major scale, it's commonly known (not just me talking) as the most difficult because it doesn't feel as natural under fingers as any other scales. it's exactly because (as above mentioned) all finger lengthes of a hand are different, and therefore fingers feel more natural playing on both black and white keys, rather than just white.

feel it yourself, and tell me if Bb major is less comfortable or more difficult to play than C major. and i think everyone would get the idea when actually playing them.

the only advantage of C major to a beginner is note reading (not playing), because there's no #'s or b's, and that's all.

They all have the same intervals, but actually playing the scales feels very different. Personally, I find scales with black keys easier for two reasons. The first being that I can synchronize the movement easier if there is "marker" in the form of a black key. For example, in G Major, it feels much more solid knowing that both fingers hit the black key at the same time. Everything feels too "loose" when I do C-Major, with no marker. It's all white keys.

The second is that it fits under the hand easier. I find it easier when the thumb can "sink" into a lower note while the longer fingers don't have to really bend to hit a white key. E Major and D-Flat Major scales, to me, feel the easiest under my fingers.

Looks like this question got some good responses and I'll add my 2 cents
It seems like you're making good progress with your C scale. Are you doing just one or two octaves? If you can do one octave hands together (HT), try 2 octaves HS (hands separate at first) then HT. You will notice that finger patterns will repeat, and will continue to do so until you run out of keys to play. The pattern is like 123 1234 123 1234 etc. (ascending) for the right hand and left hand is like 54321 321 4321 321 (ascending).
Once you feel the scale settling in, gradually notch up your speed but if you "trainwreck", back off the speed a bit.
Arpeggios: I would do one octave at first (like CEGCEGC -- picture someone singing la-la-la-la-la-la-lahhhh), just to get the hand used to wider finger spacing then go to 2 octaves. They are significantly harder than standard scales. Do them HS at first. Going HT will be slow going at first (it was for me).
As others have said, just do a couple of new scales per week. You will eventually learn them all.

You might want to see my answer to how to learn scales in this thread - http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/32/4803.html Its about how to think about scales

Practice ALL scales with both hands. Don't master one then do another one. Master them ALL, and make sure you have the right fingering! Then for extra practice do them in octaves. THEN play complimenting major chords on your left hand and do the scale on the right, then vice versa. Also, for technique, get Hanons "Virtuoso Pianist." You can download at www.imslp.org Good luck!

Btw people, I find C Major to be easiest for beginners. Not that I'd recommend just to play one, but its easier since they don't have to remember key signature. Make sure you go in order in the scale of fifths. I typically go clockwise, but you can do either way I think.

Practice often, and you technique will reward you!

dfpolitowski
If you are going to do scales they MUST sound beautiful; both legato and staccato. Scales are not about remembering accidentals, strength, ease or whatever idea many members have. They are about control. You learn and show your control through how beautifully you play them. The ear does 95% of the work.

MORE ADVICE:
Don't just whiz through scales trying for velocity - feel the movement from finger to finger as though it were slow motioned and notice how each finger does its part in the continuum.

Also, listen to the sound you are producing from playing the keys. Do you feel vibrations from the key back up through your fingers?

Where on the key are you placing your finger tips? Is there any consistency in placement of fingers going on, or are you just flipping fingers quickly onto notes without being aware of the physical process within you and what your brain is allowing you to physically do and control.

Play scales without pedals and your legato will improve greatly if you think of it as "passing the baton" (like in a relay race - track) from one finger to the next finger. One finger is moving down as the other is lifting up, they pass in opposite finger motions. Have you noticed.

If you are hearing any "clutter" you are not releasing a finger soon enough before the next finger arrives on its key.

Control at the piano is everything.

Over 36 years of teaching, I just have to say something on the topics where I feel important points have not yet been made. It just might be helpful to someone.

Well, when it comes to technick I'm just about 100% self taut on the matter.

Keyboardklutz, you emphasized "MUST". My Scale are filled with starts and stops, missed notes etc..

dfpolitowski, your scales are filled with starts and stops, missed notes etc because YOU put them there. Get away from the idea that mistakes are happening. What you are listening for is happening. You are not listening for, as Charlie Parker put it, the 'pretty notes'. Use your ears.

Try this - sing a scale as nicely as you can - then copy this on the keyboard.

df, the reason why your scales are filled with starts and stops is because your technique has not been overseen by a teacher. When going faster in a scale the fingers should not flatten out. Rather, they should remain curved. The velocity comes from using the forearm to lead the hand as it goes up the piano, and leaning the body in the direction you are playing. Objects of larger mass lead objects of smaller mass. You seem to be doing it the other way around.

When passing the thumb underneath the hand watch out for the dreaded "chicken wings". The thumb joint is not attached to the outside of the elbow, and when the cross-under is performed the arm should not swing out and flap. The large knuckle of the thumb is actually at wrist; the motion for the cross-under should originate from there. The thumb has a huge range of motion and it's much easier to learn how to use it rather than expend extra energy trying to do something that should be fairly easy and stress-free.

Minaku!

I love your "dreaded chicken wings". Doesn't that happen a lot when beginning - up goes the elbow! Just a signal that all technique is going to need teacher's examination, because this student is likely to need more monitoring and supervision than most.

Very good explanation on the passing of the thumb under. Many have not realized the thumb has two joint, not three and joins the wrist as the other fingers do not, they join the hand.

And, emphasizing the overseeing by a teacher is my recommendation too, but it is not terribly popular among many AB's, especially the one's who would benefit most by getting guidance.

Betty

Betty, I don't mind you recommending getting a teacher. Heck, I make that same recommendation myself on many occasions. But could I gently point out that it is possible to make such a recommendation without adding in subtle or not-so-subtle put-downs of those who choose not to follow it?

Betty Patnude and Minaku have given fine, usable advice re scales.

Re learning them in all keys, it's a waste of time at this point in your playing. At first the most important thing is to learn whether you really want to play the piano. There should be a pleasure in doing that. Please consider focusing your studying/practising with a view toward complementing your playing songs that you like. ("Song" is used loosely; could include nocturnes, preludes, etc.)

Try to find perhaps a dozen pieces, so that your universe can include songs in different keys. Then do your scale/arpeggio practice in the key and - as dfpowlitowski suggested - harmonic minor of the song that's number one on your list.

If you continue to enjoy playing, or if you were a full-time student, learning all keys would make sense. At the moment the most sensible thing is to learn what you know that you will use.

There will be plenty of hard work - and development of skills - as a result of your moving on to more difficult material.

One caution re acquiring new skills: at first your practising will yield many more mistakes than good results. Not to worry, you're acquiring "muscle memory." At some you'll sit down to play and what was previously difficult will quite suddenly be easy. There is a pleasure in that;-)

FogVilleLad:

I liked your post, especially your comment about not learning them in all keys at once, but I would substitute "a waste of time" with "not necessary". I definitely agree with your "At the moment the most sensible thing is to learn what you know that you will use. There will be plenty of hard work - and development of skills - as a result of your moving on to more difficult material."

It reminds me to say that in my teaching, I teach only the ones that we are using in music literature at the moment. (I talk generally about all Major Scales having the same "formula" (intervals), the same sounds (Do, Re, Mi)and that several C-G-D-A-E and RH B have the same fingerings. They are also given a Circle of 5ths diagram. But, we don't proceed through all at this time. That would be overload.)

What we do at the Elementary level is the (12)5-Finger Positions and Tonic Chords in their entirety over several weeks.

I pass out the handouts for the "whole ball of wax" - 12 Major Scales, I, IV, V chords, and 2 and 4 octave arpeggios, but we do progressively only the ones we can apply to the music we are learning as a starter orientation to the key.

They need to know how to get around the keyboard in the key they are playing, it's that simple.

I teach on a need to know basis.

Betty

Monica:

Obviously, you are pointing a "no no" out to me about subtle and not so subtle put-downs I make, and it must be in one of the above postings which I have reread several times looking for the put-down. It must be in the one to Minaku.

I spend a lot of time building people up and encouraging and relaying what I think would be useful for them to know. I would like to think my pro-active stance to others in this forum is recognized.

I do realize that people make choices not to study with a teacher - for many years I could not afford one - and in my childhood that $1 and then $3 fee was a hardship to my widowed mother who had 2 daughters to care for. But, bless her, she persisted, and here I am, as a piano teacher for 36 years. (I was 27 when I started teaching).

I, too, have done lots of self-study, and I have invested in lessons many times to work on specific things. Education continues (since 1981)in my local chapter of MTNA. I think it's great to have had all of this in my life.

I am very sorry that I affect you this way. I have no need to give put downs when I am capable of stating my case clearly when I have to. I am not trying to insult anyone or slip in an aside.

It does not seem possible to me that we would be able to be duet partners together. I am frequently perceived by you and Jotur as having issues with my opinions stated as fact. You are the only people who have confronted me on this - and I truly still do not understand what I am doing that provokes your viewpoints.

Thank you for the "gentle" reminder which gives you the ability to "put me in my place". There is quite a bit of power in your words. I take criticism seriously.

I do know you refer people to seek teachers when you see that might be to their advantage. You are a well-liked and valuable person here, as is Jotur.

I'm ready to hear how irritating I can be from anyone who wishes to express it.

Betty

I preceived the last half of the last sentence as a put-down. I have preceived other comments in other posts of yours as put-downs as well, e.g., your references to "frantic" questions from others, or self-teachers being in a "frenzy", and characterizations of what some people have said as "preposterous." It's more of a tone thing than the content. I appreciate greatly all the time you have invested in explaining concepts here. I know others have found many of your posts extremely helpful.

But I also know that others besides myself and Jotur have had similar reactions to the tone of (some of) your posts, on the basis of PMs I have received. What I would find regrettable is if self-teachers began to feel reluctant to post questions here on AB forum because they did not wish to be criticized for their decision to self-teach.

Betty,

Perhaps "misuse of your time" might express the same thought - that for most folks playing must fit into a full life of which music is only a part. I tend to be emphatic on this point because people are so often subjected to advice which, IMO, is completely inappropriate for those people. (I'm one of them.)

I mean, what exactly is the point of using time to learn something which will not be used directly, when doing that will take time away from building skills which will be used directly? There is also the further benefit that learning a supplementary skill has the potential to enlarge and enrich peoples enjoyment of playing music that they want to play.

Your students are lucky.

Monica,

Why have the PM's you have received not been directed to me by the sender, or, you taking it upon yourself to inform me of the problem

Remember I asked if it was a problem that I continue to post here since I am a teacher and not an adult student.

I have used those words - frantic, frenzy and preposterous - recently. There is no reason for anyone to get themselves into such a quandry of confusion, and for music to be overly difficult. Music making to me is to find serenity and pleasure....and a highly evolved level of your own being (mind-body-spirit)through the expression of music. Quiet minds have a better trip through the learning process - which is why "frantic, frenzy and preposterous" is such an obstacle to one's intention. I am not calling people stupid, ignorant, etc, it is the frame of minds which are not helpful to them in music making.

If anyone wants to PM me or post to me about my past postings which have been annoying to them, please do so.

I would never want to be the cause of someone not able to communicate here openly.

I am very sorry this is an issue.

Betty

Well, as you have noted, I, too, find your language about other than the straight facts, including your use of the words "frantic" and "preposterous", and other things that I have had public differences with you about, to be patronizing, and I have said so, publicly. I don't pm you because, quite frankly, I don't want you as a pen-pal And I think the issue is public. I haven't seen anyone here that seems either frantic or preposterous to me. I *have* seen people who are trying to get their heads or their hands around particular issues, I've seen all of us get discouraged with our progress at some point, which I happen to think is normal, and I've seen all of us learning from what a wide variety of us have to say. What you see as a "quandry of confusion" seems to me to be someone who is new to an issue sorting it out. It hardly seems to me they're in need of rescuing from that - in fact, for some people, the act of sorting it out is in fact the way they truly learn it. So lots of different viewpoints - yours, mine, Monica's, ZeroZero's, keyboardklutz's, who ever's, give them a chance to do that. My guess is that neither you nor I can tell from many posts how someone learns best, but I would guess that if posting here didn't provide many people information that they are glad to get, either as a supplement to lessons or as part of their self-teaching, they probably wouldn't be posting here

I find that when you are called on your use of words you immediately redefine them ("ear-candy" and "mindless" come to mind), or start using words, like collaborative or collegiality, that certainly bely the way I perceive your attitude, and, at least to me, don't fit with your "directive" method and your insistence on "sequential" as being so much better than those of us who learn differently.

I have absolutely no problem with your writing out scales, fingerings, or recommending blue dots and green lines, and I'm perfectly willing to by-pass your posts on "highly evolved level(s) of your own being" or other philosphies. To each his own. I have no problem with you having strong opinions on how to do scales or whatever - many people do.

It is *not* the fact that you are not an adult student, much as you would like to make that the issue neither Monica nor I have a problem with that, it's those final comments that you so often post that are snide that *I* think are out of line.

I actually don't, at this point, think that you understand it, and I'm pretty sure you won't. It doesn't seem to me that your thinking process along those lines is very evidence-based. The idea that it might be the fact that you aren't an adult student is what annoys Monica or me when there is absolutely no evidence that that is the case, is a case in point. So is your redefining of words when someone calls you on them. Oh well.

Which is another reason I think pm-ing you wouldn't do any good - you simply avoid the issue or misinterpret it or attempt to redefine it.

I think most of the people here, whether they are taking lessons or not, whether they have taken lessons in the past or might again in the future, are supportive of all of us who are learning and playing.

Cathy